Are we still convinced that electric vehicles are the best way forward?

[teamzr1]

The politics of forcing Americans to buy expensive and sometimes unreliable electric vehicles, along with the reality that consumers just won’t go along, have prompted Joey Biden to give up at least a portion of his green ideology, the goal to abruptly change American’s transportation away from internal combustion engines.

A report from Business Insider said his agenda-driven administration is planning to back off federal rules that require the construction and sales of more and more EVs.

Now, the report said, automakers might not have to reach a 60% EV production benchmark until 2032.
The reality is that demand for those vehicles, given their reliability, range, charging, expense and other issues, has plunged in recent months.

Business Insider said, “The incoming revision comes amid continuing pressure from car companies and the United Auto Workers union to ease the requirements, as well as loud criticism from Republicans and their presidential candidate front-runner Donald Trump.”

Even Shawn Fain, United Auto Workers chief, which endorsed Biden, has “expressed concern” about the short time frame Biden had demanded earlier for the entire industry, and all consumers, to change over.

Business Insider pointed out that the demand for EVs, “pulled back” drastically in 2023.
In fact, dealers have been “turning away” their allocations of electric cars because they were not seeing the sales keep up with supply.

Fox News commentator Liz Peek had some thoughts on the scheming by Biden to force Americans into EVs, then pull back on that campaign in order to try to win another four years in control of America.

“Surprise! Joey Biden is running away from his push for electric vehicles arguably his most important climate program, as fast as his 81-year-old legs can carry him. Common sense and sinking polls in Michigan have broken through Biden’s climate panic; it’s about time.”

She also noted there was the factor from BYD, China’s leader maker of electric cars.

She explained, “The New York Times, the favored errand boy for the Biden White House, delivered the head-spinning turnaround on Sunday of a holiday weekend, under the radar. In essence,
Biden has extended the timetable for lowering tailpipe emissions several years into the future, a backtracking sure to infuriate the climate lobby and especially climate-obsessed young voters. The president’s standing with that latter cohort is already shrinking; a recent poll showed Donald Trump running ahead of Biden with registered voters under the age of 35.”

The Times had outlines Biden’s new plans to “relax” EPA demands for emission limits.

Peek pointed out, “The EPA celebrated the tripling of EV sales during Biden’s presidency and the building of 130,000 charging stations. That sounds impressive, except that electrics represented less than 8% of all new car sales last year and the U.S. will need an estimated two million charging ports by 2032.
Further, California already has been forced to issue advisories to electric car owners not to charge their vehicles at certain times because the state’s electric grid cannot handle the load.

And it as Cox Automotive that reported the average price for a new EV was nearly $51,000,
when the “old-fashioned gas guzzlers” were going for an average of $34,000.

Further, Peek noted the “Reports of cold weather hindering charging operations and battery lives being drained by sub-freezing temperatures have further squelched enthusiasm.”
Automakers were losing their shirts, with Ford taking a hit of $36,000 for “each” EV it made.

“Those issues have not swayed a White House consumed by climate alarmist. What has gotten their attention is the political risk of losing Michigan, a critical swing state.
A recent Fox News survey shows Trump leading Biden 47 percent to 45 percent in the Wolverine state.
The Real Clear Politics average of Michigan polls shows Trump ahead by 5 points.”

Her own network's newest polling shows 6% of 2020 Biden voters have switched their preference to Trump, enough to change the outcome of an election.
Biden also faces new opposition from the state’s large Arab-American population, whose members are charging Biden has failed to meet their demands regarding the Hamas terror war the Gaza-based organization launched against Israel.

Rank-and-file autoworkers also are alarmed by Biden’s EV push, since it takes fewer worker-hours to make them.

And there are the Chinese products, which have been selling more than Tesla around the world, and might soon be made in Mexico, meaning they could be imported economically

 

[teamzr1]

Mercedes-Benz has backtracked on their plan to transition to selling only electric vehicles after 2030, with company officials saying that “market conditions” have not allowed that to happen.
It was just three years ago when the German luxury vehicle manufacturer announced that it would go “all-electric,” the Verge reported at the time.

The company said it would commit $47 billion to electrifying its fleet, with CEO and board chair Ola Källenius saying, “We are convinced, we can do it with strong profitability, and we believe that focus on electrical is the right way to build a successful future and to enhance the value of Mercedes Benz.”

Those plans were scrapped this week in the company’s fourth quarter earnings statement:

“Customers and market conditions will set the pace of the transformation. The company plans to be in a position to cater to different customer needs, whether it’s an all-electric drivetrain or an electrified combustion engine, until well into the 2030s.”

The automobile giant went on to state that its electric vehicle sales are expected to only reach a maximum of 50 percent of the overall sales in the second half of this decade.
The business model change comes after multiple highly-publicized instances of Mercedes-Benz electric vehicles catching on fire and causing massive damage.

An EQB model caught ablaze while being charged in a car showroom in Malaysia on New Year’s Eve 2023, with video footage showing the terrifying moment a portion of the building went up in flames.

The fire destroyed “about 90 percent of the car, five percent of the showroom building structure, and 20 percent of the electric vehicle charging bay” the local fire and rescue operation commander told the Star.

Earlier in the year, a new Mercedes-Benz EQE350+ electric vehicle spontaneously caught fire while parked in a Nocatee, Florida home garage, causing an estimated $1 million in damage to the house.

The car wasn’t even charging when it caught fire

 

[Roscobbc]

Couple all the above........and later in vehicle life cycle and when its perhaps with 2nd, 3rd and 4th owners who may not live in a location where charging is possible, so using trailing leads out in to the street - vehicle's electrical sockets and system have had many thousands of charge cycles etc etc......one can see a huge recipe for disaster!

 

[phild]

Couple all the above........and later in vehicle life cycle and when its perhaps with 2nd, 3rd and 4th owners who may not live in a location where charging is possible, so using trailing leads out in to the street - vehicle's electrical sockets and system have had many thousands of charge cycles etc etc......one can see a huge recipe for disaster!

Its no wonder insurance costs are rocketing.

 

[teamzr1]

Apple should stick with making kid games
This is what they think customers would see as a car ?
Any guy driving this should be beat up

Apple on Tuesday notified employees it was killing the 'Apple car', a much-anticipated project which had been in the pipeline for more than a decade.
The move to abandon its electric car plan was revealed in an internal memo circulated to around 2,000 company employees, Bloomberg reported.

It said that some employees on the team that had been developing the car, known as the Special Projects Group, will be moved to its artificial intelligence (AI) division.
However, not everybody would be saved, and some layoffs would be inevitable, the outlet reported.

The cancelation of the project comes as a bit of a shock. Just last month, Bloomberg itself reported the company would launch the car as early as 2028 and reduce its self-driving abilities.
The memo came from Apple chief operating officer Jeff Williams and Kevin Lynch, a vice president in charge of the project, Bloomberg reported.

Apple's electric car has been planned since at least 2014, and rumors around what it would entail have evolved over that period.
Though its initial plans were to create a fully autonomous vehicle, it recently pared back plans. Executives were also reportedly concerned that at the target price of $100,000 profit margins would be precariously slim.

 

[CaptainK]

Executives were also reportedly concerned that at the target price of $100,000 profit margins would be precariously slim.

Looking at the car, and also the 100k price, I don't think profit margins are the main thing to be concerned about - more about how people are gonna be chundering after seeing it, and going "100k? You're havin a giraffe mate"

And after experiencing just a little bit of "self driving" recently in the form of "lane assist" on my new Skoda. Well, you can shove all forms of self driving right where the sun don't shine thankyou - I prefer NOT to die because the car wants to drag me into hedges or oncoming traffic in the small roads (and bigger B roads) around me, or lorries on motorways.

 

[teamzr1]

Electric vehicles can release more pollution than gas-powered vehicles, according to a report that has recently resurfaced.

The study, which was published in 2022 but has begun circulating again after being cited in a WSJ op-ed, found that brakes and tires release 1,850 times more particulate matter compared to modern tailpipes which have filters that reduce emissions.

It found that EVs are 30 percent heavier on average than gas-powered vehicles, which causes the brakes and tire treads to wear out faster than standard cars and releases tiny, often toxic particles into the atmosphere.

EV batteries weigh about 1,000 pounds, and can result in tire emissions that are nearly 400 times more than tailpipe emissions.
Particle pollution can increase health problems including heart disease, asthma, lung disease and in extreme cases, can lead to hospitalization, cancer, and premature death.

It comes as California is working to impose a complete ban on all gas vehicles by 2035.

New gasoline-powered vehicles don’t release the same amount of emissions as older vehicles, emitting only one percent of all particulate matter (air pollution) in California, with the majority of emissions coming from older vehicles.
New gasoline cars are created to be 'cleaner,' by updating the trims of their internal combustion engines to include particulate filters that reduce emissions to below 1/1000th of a gram per mile.

The EVs increased weight due to their lithium-ion batteries cause the tire treads to wear faster, ultimately producing more emissions.
The study, conducted by the firm Emissions Analytics, said the main difference between tailpipe and tire emissions is that the majority of particulate emissions released from the tire go directly into the soil and water, while exhaust negatively affects the air quality.

The effects of tire composition come down to the materials the tire is made from, the study reported.
Light-duty tires are typically made from synthetic rubber which is developed using crude oil natural rubber adds fillers and additives, some of which are recognized carcinogens.

Emissions Analytics tested the tire wear on both EV and gas-powered vehicles after driving them at least 1,000 miles.
The researchers used a sampling system to collect particles immediately behind each tire and then measured the size of the particles emitted from the tread.

It found that the greater the vehicle's mass and weight, the more rapidly the tire particulate emissions would be released due to the increased torque between the tires and the road.
A separate 2020 report by the Emissions Analytics firm said that tires are likely to be a major concern in the coming years as ‘consumers switch to bigger and heavier cars.’

‘Research shows they contribute to microplastic marine pollution, as well as air pollution from finer particles,’ the report continued.
The average Hyundai electric vehicle weighs more than 3,700 pounds compared to the gas-powered alternative which weighs 3,000 pounds.

Meanwhile, Volvo’s EV weighs 4,662 pounds while its gas-powered vehicle weighs 3,726, but the Ford F150 EV truck comes in at a whopping 6,000 pounds, 2,000 pounds more than the gas option.

 

[Letank]

Euro 7 emissions regulations will introduce tyre and brake particulate limits (amongst many other things) in EU and Northern Ireland in the next few years. It will probably take a year or two longer until Great Britain has something similar though.

The EU7 tyre tests will be at component level (non vehicle specific), so the emphasis will be on tyre manufacturers to utilise better materials/technology to ensure each tyre model complies with the regulation.

At least where brake particulates are concerned, EVs and hybrids produce significantly less than ICE vehicles due to the majority of normal braking being done via regen to improve overall efficiency.

 

[Chuffer]

Apple should stick with making kid games
This is what they think customers would see as a car ?
Any guy driving this should be beat up

Apple on Tuesday notified employees it was killing the 'Apple car', a much-anticipated project which had been in the pipeline for more than a decade.
The move to abandon its electric car plan was revealed in an internal memo circulated to around 2,000 company employees, Bloomberg reported.

It said that some employees on the team that had been developing the car, known as the Special Projects Group, will be moved to its artificial intelligence (AI) division.
However, not everybody would be saved, and some layoffs would be inevitable, the outlet reported.

The cancelation of the project comes as a bit of a shock. Just last month, Bloomberg itself reported the company would launch the car as early as 2028 and reduce its self-driving abilities.
The memo came from Apple chief operating officer Jeff Williams and Kevin Lynch, a vice president in charge of the project, Bloomberg reported.

Apple's electric car has been planned since at least 2014, and rumors around what it would entail have evolved over that period.
Though its initial plans were to create a fully autonomous vehicle, it recently pared back plans. Executives were also reportedly concerned that at the target price of $100,000 profit margins would be precariously slim.

View attachment 25539

Made by Apple but looks like a real Lemon

 

[Chuffer]

Looking at the car, and also the 100k price, I don't think profit margins are the main thing to be concerned about - more about how people are gonna be chundering after seeing it, and going "100k? You're havin a giraffe mate"

And after experiencing just a little bit of "self driving" recently in the form of "lane assist" on my new Skoda. Well, you can shove all forms of self driving right where the sun don't shine thankyou - I prefer NOT to die because the car wants to drag me into hedges or oncoming traffic in the small roads (and bigger B roads) around me, or lorries on motorways.

Was travelling up the M1 recently in my mates new Audi and thought it was tram lining the HGV ruts but he said it was the Lane Assist taking over . Bloody aweful experience and just another `toy` that supposedly compensates for crap drivers that can`t drive properly !!

 

[CaptainK]

Was travelling up the M1 recently in my mates new Audi and thought it was tram lining the HGV ruts but he said it was the Lane Assist taking over . Bloody aweful experience and just another `toy` that supposedly compensates for crap drivers that can`t drive properly !!

Tell me about it. Thankfully there is an OFF switch to it, but frustratingly you have to do it EVERY TIME you turn the ignition on. Even when its not trying to kill me, with it on and going around corners, it just makes the car feel "skittish" like its got less grip on the road. Horrid feeling.

 

[teamzr1]

Long term costs in owning a EV

One owner :

Finally decided to replace the HV battery in my 2014.
I have been having the ICE run before 0 EV miles intermittently for almost a year now, usually only when cold.
I also had a charging session stop after an hour, followed by a full week of unable to charge.

Furthermore, I ordered the battery (reconditioned cells) from Best Hybrid Batteries on Tuesday, March 5th, and it is being delivered to their white glove installer Curt's Service today, March 7th. Total cost of battery, including shipping is $6075.00
Quoted installation price is $1794.90 and told they would have to have the car for at least 1 week
That is $8,000 for a 10-year-old car that has a low selling resale value

 

[Roscobbc]

Long term costs in owning a EV

One owner :

Finally decided to replace the HV battery in my 2014.
I have been having the ICE run before 0 EV miles intermittently for almost a year now, usually only when cold.
I also had a charging session stop after an hour, followed by a full week of unable to charge.

Furthermore, I ordered the battery (reconditioned cells) from Best Hybrid Batteries on Tuesday, March 5th, and it is being delivered to their white glove installer Curt's Service today, March 7th. Total cost of battery, including shipping is $6075.00
Quoted installation price is $1794.90 and told they would have to have the car for at least 1 week
That is $8,000 for a 10-year-old car that has a low selling resale value

I thought for a moment Jon this was you.........but realised it was a 'clip' from another publication.
One of the reasons why Toyota's Prius (and Honda's Insight) hybrids were 'gobbled up' by Uber users firstly in London as initially they were exempt from Londons congestion charge (and later the inner London low emission zone). Ubers were laughing even with several hundred thousand miles on the clock because our annual MOT tests don't check the state of the hybrid battery - if it's knackered it doesn't matter as the test only measures tailpipe emissions........so they can carry on using them with no fears of failing annual tests. Some of the early Tesla's are now 10 years old. It'll be intersting to hear stories of battery replacement costs for them.

 

[teamzr1]

Be a cold day in hell before I bought one, they could not even give me one

I've mentioned before the state of N.Y had bought hundreds of these and slowly over time they were not seen on the streets
Was found later the state abandoned them in 2 fields covered in trees and high weeds because the costs to replace the batteries
was so costly that they could not afford it, so cheaper just to dump them all and hide it from the taxpayers

Hertz rental also had bought hundreds of these and costs of having them so high they are dumping them and the CEO
of Hertz would was the cause of the huge money loss was just fired along with others there

Most electric in the USA, the lines are buried deep in the ground, no electric wires above
where I live there are over 250 units, the main breaker panel is about the middle of the unit, so there is no way to easily add new wires
where garage is all the way around the buildings, no basements or attics above to add 40-50 amp wiring
So totally stupid on all this as installing chargers is impossible

Aholes Feds last week snuck in a law no going after all gas or diesel trucks stating they all have to be gone within 8 years and 8 states
have demanded the same for gas vehicles

 

[teamzr1]

So are people in Europe wising up ?

Electric vehicle (EV) sales plunged across Europe in March as demand dried up despite the E.U.’s push to ban petrol and diesel vehicles by the middle of the next decade.

The Daily Telegraph reports sales of battery-powered cars dropped by 11.3 percent as demand in Germany, Europe’s largest economy, plunged by 28.9 percent, according to the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA).

Only 13 percent of new registrations were electric, down from 13.9 percent in March last year and down from 14.6 percent for all of 2023, continuing a long-term trend,
Overall figures show electric vehicle sales have stalled despite Europe’s plans to ban the sale of new internal combustion engine cars by 2035.

According to the Telegraph report, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz and Tesla have all recorded falling electric vehicle sales in the first three months of the year.
It came as new vehicle registrations overall fell by 5.3 percent across the E.U. to one million last month.
The slowdown in EV sales in recent months has not been limited to Europe.

Tesla, for example, saw its deliveries slump in the first quarter for the first annual drop since the start of the pandemic in 2020, missing analyst forecasts in a sign that even price cuts haven’t been able to stave off an increasing consumer skepticism about the long-term EV market

 

[Letank]

Many things have lead to the slow down in EV sales in UK and Europe:
- The reduction of government incentives when purchasing them makes them less attractive than they once were
- Incredibly poor residuals due to lack of confidence in battery durability
- Increasing cost of electricity
- The relaxing and delay of Euro 7 emissions regulations, and lack of any tighter emissions regulations in the UK for the foreseeable future, has allowed OEMs to reconsider their EV role out strategies.

Electric cars are still the future though, whether powered by batteries or fuel cells, so this will only be hiccup in the grand scheme of things.

The legislators drive product change and zero emissions mandates aren’t going away, so sooner or later we’ll all be driving electric vehicles whether we like it or not.

 

[Roscobbc]

The legislators drive product change and zero emissions mandates aren’t going away, so sooner or later we’ll all be driving electric vehicles whether we like it or not.

Only because what was once a pleasure has become a chore and in our increasingly congested country we'll each have little opportunity or desire to use personal transport .......so will travel fewer miles and the typical low range of a battery vehicle will perhaps suit that enforced lifestyle (for those able to afford it)

 

[Stingray]

Any form of reciprocating engine is toast due to the inefficiency of pistons stopping, starting and then going back the other way. In many ways it's a great shame the gas turbine never got developed for automotive use, given their popularity in aircraft and some ships. A miniature gas turbine installed in a gas/electric hybrid might have been interesting. I'm thinking range extender use on the motorway rather than 56 jet fighters screaming up your local high street!

 

[antijam]

At the present rate of consumption it's estimated that the world's reserves of fossil fuels will be depleted by 2060 and oil by 2050, certainly in my grandchildren's time. Attempts to reduce greenhouse emissions by reducing fossil fuel consumption are still woefully inadequate to achieve a 1.5°C increase in global warming above pre-industrial levels. Scotland has just announced that its target of reducing greenhouse emissions by 2030 is now 'out of reach'. One way and another any form of fossil fuelled cars will be history well before the end of this century.

Despite being one of the earliest forms of power for personal transport - at the turn of the last century 38% of cars in the States were electric ( 40% were steam! ) - the basic limitation is still the inability to store large amounts of electricity in a compact space. It has improved significantly in recent years and today's electric cars are much more competent than their predecessors, and I've no doubt they'll improve further given the same level of research and development that went into petrol and diesel cars in the past. To make them practical the onus is on governments to provide the infrastructure to support them. That's not an insurmountable problem, the first petrol powered cars had to buy their fuel at the chemist but it didn't take many years for the global network of fuel stations to appear.

At present electricity is the only practical form of energy that can be produced by renewable means and even the hydrogen for fuel cell cars is produced using electricity.
As a car enthusiast I will regret the passing of the internal combustion engine (although at my age its passing is unlikely to happen before mine) but I'm pretty sure my grandchildren will be driving electric.

 

[Roscobbc]

It's interesting looking at that balance of ice, steam and electric vehicles in the USA in the early days of motoring. Electric vehicles were perfect for city use. Given that most major cities were on a railroad longer distance travel and vital supplies were already well catered for and the simplicity and reliability of electric cars were ideal for those local journeys for those who were able to afford a car. With the huge exponential growth of the rail network here in the UK in the late 1800's one would have thought the same scenario could have worked here in the UK.......but perhaps due to the endemic class structure here motorised transport for individuals was seen as something only for wealthy and upper classes.....while the great 'unwashed' could barely afford to repair their shoes, presuming they were able to afford to have bought them in the first place it took several decades and Henry Ford to show the way for the masses here.