Are we still convinced that electric vehicles are the best way forward?

[teamzr1]

If you're thinking about buying an electric car, you need to know that they do not like Britain's icy winters and will not perform to the levels quoted by their manufacturers.

That's according to a new study published at a time when parts of the UK is experiencing plummeting temperatures and snowfall.
It found real-world ranges of popular electric vehicles (EVs) can fall by almost a third when it's particularly cold outside.

A review of 12 of the nation's best-selling battery-powered cars found that the worst was 32.8 per cent down on its claimed driving range on a full charge.
The least impressive performer among the selection of EVs was China's new Ora Funky Cat, which starts from £31,995 in the UK.

 

[Roscobbc]

That Ora 'Funked-Up' Cat looks a dodgy choice - and there a quite a few other electric vehicles 'out there' and not mentioned on that list.

 

[James Vette]

So how will the power grid cope with everyone charging their car at night?

 

[Mike-]

As an owner of an electric vehicle I feel qualified to answer the question posed in the thread title - no!

We’ve had a Mercedes EQC for just over a year and in fairness it’s really nice, quiet and refined, very cheap charging off-peak at home, fast at the bottom end, easy to drive, and so on.

I will however no longer take it on a journey that requires any sort of public charging. This is a company vehicle, my daily is a high miler BMW 530D, and obviously the Vette in the garage. My rates at home per kwh are 34p and 7.5p for four hours a night. To break even cost wise with my BMW it‘d be 40p. The new Octopus tariff in my area is moving to 42p shortly. We used to have a Ionity subscription which came with the car at 25p, which wasn’t too bad. This has now changed for 2023 to 53p, more expensive than the diesel. You struggle now to find any public chargers less than 60p and most are 80p and up, which is double the cost of taking the diesel and about the same as taking the Z06…

Anyway, the maths and cost is barely the point, it’s the time. We took a trip from Yorkshire to Southampton, 240 miles each way, with a free hotel charge at the other end. So in theory leave with a full charge, tickle it somewhere for 20 mins, plug in at the hotel and do the same on the repeat journey. Fine on the way down, but the hotel charger wasn’t working, or too busy, and too slow to even get a full charge overnight. On the way home at 8pm with a tired baby and -1 Celsius we stopped and required a full charge. This was at 83pkwh at a Shell garage, and totalled £95 to gain 200 miles AND TOOK OVER AN HOUR! All chargers in the area were this cost and speed. With the baby crying and while watching ICE cars waltz in and out and fuel up in ten seconds and be on their merry way, I‘ve never been so frustrated in a car. I’m still not over it which is why I‘m still moaning. If the charge was free it wouldn’t have been worth it, never mind the same as doing as 15 to the gallon.

Add into that most chargers being busy now, especially in peak times, the amount of time and money I’ve spent pointlessly at Services, the weird non queuing system these places have, downloading countless apps just to get a charge and filling in forms on my phone, we absolutely are not getting another EV. It’s good when we do short journeys and get the off peak rate, which will no doubt change, but also literally takes four nights to charge up. Get an EV if you go nowhere or hate yourself, basically.

 

[Roscobbc]

Quite a damning comment from Mike-. I've noticed that over the last couple of years or so the used prices of earlier (and cheaper) production Tesla model S's that carry 'free' changing at Supercharger stations have increased significantly in price. Guessing that is due to the 'benefits' of a comprehensive charger network in many parts of the UK and the benefits of Tesla only charging. Wonder how Tesla's 'experiment' to open up a limited number of Supercharger stations to 'other' electric vehicles is going? - I would guess that Tesla owners would be very upset if their 'exclusivity' and perhaps minimal waiting to charge-up is jeopodised by queues of 'ordinary' electric vehicles ousting Tesla's at their own charging points.
TBH with the constantly reported shortages of on-street charging points I would be surprised if our HMG pressurised Tesla to 'open-up' Superchargers to 'all comers'.......

 

[teamzr1]

Germany forms alliance to change EU's planned combustion engine ban

The European Commission may table a legally-binding proposal in the coming weeks to make e-fuels exempt from the EU's planned ICE ban.

BERLIN -- Germany has formed an alliance with Italy and some Eastern European countries opposing the planned phase-out of internal combustion engines from 2035 unless cars running on e-fuels are exempted from the ban.

Transport ministers from Germany, Italy, the Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia met on Monday to discuss changes to the European Union plans.

German transport minister Volker Wissing said skepticism about phasing out internal combustion vehicles was shared by Italy, Poland and the Czech Republic, among others.
Berlin is in talks with Brussels and is seeking a resolution “as soon as possible” before it can sign off on any deal, Wissing told reporters on Monday in Strasbourg.

"The proposal needs changes urgently," Wissing said.
He said the group of countries wants a separate category of combustion-engine cars that could run on synthetic, carbon-neutral e-fuels, after 2035.
"A ban on the combustion engine, when it can run in a climate-neutral way, seems a wrong approach for us," Wissing said on Monday.

Volkswagen and Porsche are developing e-fuels and have argued they could be an alternative to electrification in some segments of the auto industry. Wissing said vehicles running on e-fuels only should be exempt from the planned ban.

"We do not want to stop things, nor do we want them to fail in the end," Wissing said. "We want the regulation to succeed — we need climate neutrality — but we have to remain technology-open, anything else is not a good option for Europe."

New proposal to come

Czech Transport Minister Martin Kupka said the European Commission may table a legally-binding proposal on e-fuels in the coming weeks.
"The information was that it will be in the next days or in the next two weeks to find a solution for this exemption for e-fuels," Kupka said. "It is necessary to find a solution.

The ICE ban, the EU's main tool to speed up Europe's shift to electric vehicles, was put on hold earlier this month after last-minute opposition from Germany. That surprised policymakers in Brussels and other member states because EU countries and the European Parliament had already agreed to a deal on the law last year.

The EU says the 2035 date is crucial because the average lifespan of new cars is 15 years – so a later ban would stop the EU reaching net zero emissions by 2050, the global milestone scientists say would avert disastrous climate change. Transport accounts for around a quarter of EU emissions.

But cars hold outsize importance in Germany, where the auto industry employs about 800,000 people and has revenue of about 411 billion euros ($441 billion), making it the largest segment of the economy by far.

Proponents of e-fuels say they are essentially renewable electricity that has been converted into a combustible, liquid fuel using CO2 captured from the atmosphere.
Critics say that e-fuels are a waste of renewable energy and should be saved for harder-to-decarbonize uses, while some parts of industry also worry that it could create regulatory uncertainty.

 

[Roscobbc]

At last someone has 'stood-up' with some common sense. Perhaps when time gets closer to the planned ban on production of fossil fueled vehicles and there are far, far more electric vehicles in use someone, somewhere will come-up with factual figures relating to the 'real' emissions related to battery powered vehicles related to emission outputs from electrical generating stations and the mining of rare earth materials for battery production.

 

[Mad4slalom]

As an owner of an electric vehicle I feel qualified to answer the question posed in the thread title - no!

We’ve had a Mercedes EQC for just over a year and in fairness it’s really nice, quiet and refined, very cheap charging off-peak at home, fast at the bottom end, easy to drive, and so on.

I will however no longer take it on a journey that requires any sort of public charging. This is a company vehicle, my daily is a high miler BMW 530D, and obviously the Vette in the garage. My rates at home per kwh are 34p and 7.5p for four hours a night. To break even cost wise with my BMW it‘d be 40p. The new Octopus tariff in my area is moving to 42p shortly. We used to have a Ionity subscription which came with the car at 25p, which wasn’t too bad. This has now changed for 2023 to 53p, more expensive than the diesel. You struggle now to find any public chargers less than 60p and most are 80p and up, which is double the cost of taking the diesel and about the same as taking the Z06…

Anyway, the maths and cost is barely the point, it’s the time. We took a trip from Yorkshire to Southampton, 240 miles each way, with a free hotel charge at the other end. So in theory leave with a full charge, tickle it somewhere for 20 mins, plug in at the hotel and do the same on the repeat journey. Fine on the way down, but the hotel charger wasn’t working, or too busy, and too slow to even get a full charge overnight. On the way home at 8pm with a tired baby and -1 Celsius we stopped and required a full charge. This was at 83pkwh at a Shell garage, and totalled £95 to gain 200 miles AND TOOK OVER AN HOUR! All chargers in the area were this cost and speed. With the baby crying and while watching ICE cars waltz in and out and fuel up in ten seconds and be on their merry way, I‘ve never been so frustrated in a car. I’m still not over it which is why I‘m still moaning. If the charge was free it wouldn’t have been worth it, never mind the same as doing as 15 to the gallon.

Add into that most chargers being busy now, especially in peak times, the amount of time and money I’ve spent pointlessly at Services, the weird non queuing system these places have, downloading countless apps just to get a charge and filling in forms on my phone, we absolutely are not getting another EV. It’s good when we do short journeys and get the off peak rate, which will no doubt change, but also literally takes four nights to charge up. Get an EV if you go nowhere or hate yourself, basically.

sorry for your woes, this confirms to me that in theory ev’s are a great idea ,But also that we are being railroaded toward them prematurely before the cost, the range, the network and infrastructure as well as the issue of disposal of millions of worn out batteries have been properly thought out and addressed.

 

[teamzr1]

At last someone has 'stood-up' with some common sense. Perhaps when time gets closer to the planned ban on production of fossil fueled vehicles and there are far, far more electric vehicles in use someone, somewhere will come-up with factual figures relating to the 'real' emissions related to battery powered vehicles related to emission outputs from electrical generating stations and the mining of rare earth materials for battery production.

There have been 3 volcanos bust loose so far this year
They put out millions of tons of crap into the air and the waters and no one is trying to stop them

Corvettes starting with the C5s have 30 MPG when C3s were lucky I'd get 10 MPG, and they have less than
half the HP&TQ, so we cleaned up the air quite well while countries like China and India blow their crap all over the world

NASA has 4 spacecrafts that were launched in the 1970s and still have engine power to now, 2 of them are outside the Sun's reach
with power using heat from the decay of radioactive material, contained in a device called a radioisotope thermal generator (RTG).
The power output of the RTGs diminishes by only about four watts per year

So if governments would quit screwing around, we could do the same thing here on Earth

Voyagers 1 & 2 now are both slightly more than 11 billion miles (18 billion kilometers) from Earth

Launched in 1977, the twin Voyager probes are NASA’s longest-operating mission and the only spacecraft ever to explore interstellar space.
For two decades after launch, the spacecraft were planetary explorers, giving us up-close views of the gas giants Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.
Now, as they reach distances far beyond the hopes of their original designers, the aging spacecraft challenge their team in new ways, requiring creative solutions to keep them operating and sending back science data from the space between the stars.

 

[teamzr1]

sorry for your woes, this confirms to me that in theory ev’s are a great idea ,But also that we are being railroaded toward them prematurely before the cost, the range, the network and infrastructure as well as the issue of disposal of millions of worn out batteries have been properly thought out and addressed.

They tried using battery power for vehicles back in the early 1900s,

The failed then and just as bad today, as those dictating what we can own and drive have bought hundreds of billions of stock shares in power plants using fossil fuels, so battery chargers can eat that up and shares in anything dealing with producing vehicles that still cannot maintain a battery for any real driving distances

Yet one of your so-called princes married to a woke commie comes to the USA and is burning up fuel to fly countless miles per year just to spew their horseshiff

 

[teamzr1]

Another rig to prevent we the people in deciding what we drive, from wacko Ca

U.S. House of Representatives Bill Introduced to Stop California’s Car Ban​

Encourage support from lawmakers on this proposal: U.S. Rep. John Joyce (R-PA) introduced a SAN-supported bill (H.R. 1435) to protect Americans’ right to choose the technology that powers their motor vehicles. The “Preserving Choice in Vehicle Purchases Act” was introduced in response to California’s plans to ban the sale of new gas- and diesel-powered cars and trucks in 2035 unless certain conditions are met. If approved, H.R 1435 would prevent the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) from allowing California’s Zero Emissions Vehicle regulations that would ban the sale or use of new motor vehicles with internal combustion engines from taking effect.

Lawmakers Must Hear from You Right Away!

 

[Chuffer]

Another rig to prevent we the people in deciding what we drive, from wacko Ca

U.S. House of Representatives Bill Introduced to Stop California’s Car Ban​

Encourage support from lawmakers on this proposal: U.S. Rep. John Joyce (R-PA) introduced a SAN-supported bill (H.R. 1435) to protect Americans’ right to choose the technology that powers their motor vehicles. The “Preserving Choice in Vehicle Purchases Act” was introduced in response to California’s plans to ban the sale of new gas- and diesel-powered cars and trucks in 2035 unless certain conditions are met. If approved, H.R 1435 would prevent the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) from allowing California’s Zero Emissions Vehicle regulations that would ban the sale or use of new motor vehicles with internal combustion engines from taking effect.

Lawmakers Must Hear from You Right Away!

So they wanna ban you from buying ICE vehicles but allow you to buy guns and go around shooting each other !! And I thought our UK politicians are F `in useless .

 

[teamzr1]

Jaguar is recalling more than 6,000 I-Pace electric SUVs in the US due to the risk of the battery catching fire.

The British luxury carmaker issued the recall for models from 2019 to 2024 and urges owners to park their vehicles outside until recall repairs are completed
The issue is due to the high-voltage battery made by LG Energy Solution, which may overheat and spark fires or force the SUVs to stall while driving.

Dealers will check recalled SUV batteries using software capable of identifying conditions linked to overheating and replace faulty modules for free.
The US National Highway Traffic Safety (NHTS) shared documents Wednesday about the recall.

'Vehicles have experienced thermal overload, which may show as smoke or fire, that may occur underneath the vehicle where the high voltage traction battery is located. Investigations are continuing,' the documents read.

'A vehicle thermal overload condition such as fire or smoke can result in an increased risk of occupant injury and/or injury to persons outside the vehicle, as well as property damage.'
Recalled vehicles will receive an update to the Battery Energy Control Module (BECM) software that will monitor the battery pack assembly operational status that indicates where the battery contains conditions that may lead to thermal overload.

This software provides an enhanced level of driver warnings about battery conditions.
Where the software determines a risk exists, the High Voltage battery charging capacity is limited to 75 percent.

Jaguar is set to notify dealers about the recall on June 8 and owners will receive direct communications on July 21.

The documents say the vehicle batteries were made by LG Energy Solution, which is under investigation by the NHTSA after five automakers issued recalls due to possible defects that could cause fires or stalling.
The NHTSA opened the probe in April 2022, covering more than 138,000 vehicles with the South Korean company's lithium-ion batteries.

General Motors, Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai, Stellantis and Volkswagen have issued recalls since February 2020, mostly due to internal battery failures that can increase the risk of fires.
The agency said it will write to LG and other companies that might have bought similar batteries to make sure recalls are being done when needed.

LG Energy Solution, based in Seoul, South Korea, noted that Jaguar is updating the battery-managing software on the vehicles while the incidents that led to the recall are being investigated.
'LG Energy Solution continues to closely work with our client Jaguar Land Rover to ensure that the investigation is concluded,' it said in a statement Thursday.

The investigation is another bug in a growing global rollout of electric vehicles by all automakers to replace internal combustion vehicles to cut emissions and fight climate change. Ford and BMW also have recalled batteries in recent years. Also, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board investigated a series of fires in Tesla vehicles and said the high-voltage lithium-ion batteries pose safety risks to first responders after crashes.

Many governments are counting on EVs to replace gasoline-burning vehicles that emit greenhouse gases that cause global warming.
Documents in the Jaguar recall say the battery energy control module software will be updated by a dealer or online.
The dealers will also replace battery modules if needed.

The documents say that Jaguar has received 14 reports of vehicle fires in the U.S. starting in June of 2019.

 

[Chuffer]

Best thing to happen with EV`s IMO . Let em burn and then throw the misguided greenies and politicians on the pyre too !

 

[teamzr1]

Is anyone really surprised at this ?

Electric vehicles lose a significant amount of range when loaded with heavy cargo, according to a new AAA study released Tuesday.
An electric pickup truck can lose nearly 25% of its range when hauling loads about 100 pounds less than its maximum capacity, the study said.
This also means of higher charging costs due to needing more often charging

"Range anxiety remains a top reason consumers are hesitant to switch from gasoline-powered vehicles to EVs," Adrienne Woodland, a AAA spokeswoman, said in a statement.

In the study, the auto club's researchers drove a 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning electric pickup truck with a 1,400-pound load of sandbags.
The load was 110 pounds less than the truck's maximum capacity.

A Ford spokeswoman wasn't available to comment on the study's findings.

AAA's test truck saw its range drop by 24.5% from 278 miles to only 210 miles, it said.
The test was conducted on a 7.5-mile oval test track and a dynamometer at The Automobile Club of Southern California's Automotive Research Center in Los Angeles.

Simply put, extra weight in a vehicle requires more energy for it to move, researchers said.

"Our testing revealed a significant range reduction, but it's important to note that the Lightning was loaded to near its maximum capacity," Greg Brannon, director of AAA Automotive Engineering, the auto club's division that conducted the study, said in a statement. "Most buyers will likely use their Lightning with a lighter load, resulting in a much smaller range reduction."

In addition to carrying heavy loads, highway driving or permanent loads can also reduce an electric vehicle's range, AAA said.

Drivers on highways move at higher speeds and aren't able to take advantage of EVs' technology that captures energy from braking and feeds it into the battery, according to experts.
Furthermore, electric vehicles with permanent loads such as equipment racks, built-in equipment trays and toolboxes, will also decrease their range, even without additional cargo.

 

[Roscobbc]

I've been watching our regional police forces on reporting on Facebook with their commercial vehicle checks and prosecutions for trucks in dangerous condition. More importantly they are 'pulling' numbers of European (not UK) registered smaller trucks and vans that have been officially 'plated' to carry a specific weight (suitable for the trucks suspension, brakes and engine....... these are all ICE powered but when weighed 'dry' by the cops have very little (in some cases zero) load capacity, obviously all with fraudulent European documentation and the trucks being significantly, dangerously and illegally overloaded. The police are impounding the vehicles immediately and prosecuting the drivers, and forcing drivers/owners to make alternative arrangements for moving their payloads.
As irrevalent as it may currently seem on a thread relating to electric cars..........it will become very relavent given the significantly reduced payload that electric commercial vehicles will have.
Perhaps this Essex based company has the right ideas for localised deliveries?

Tevva set for mass production after receiving whole vehicle type approval

Tevva set for mass production after receiving whole vehicle type approval

www.tevva.com

7.5T Electric - Getting the job done

Our trucks comfortably meet (and exceed) demanding duty cycles for a variety of urban transport functions.

www.tevva.com

 

[teamzr1]

They state :
Tevva’s 7.5t electric truck offers up to 140 miles

For use in a business that is low miles per charge and maybe 4–5 hours downtime to charge up

 

[Roscobbc]

Jon - I read 180 Kilometers range.....and that was "up to" - so very local deliveries!

 

[teamzr1]

180 K is that not only 111 miles ?
Use it for reason of buying one, add the weight of what is loaded on truck and the UP TO becomes, be prepared to walk home

Wonder what the selling price is ?

 

[Roscobbc]

180 K is that not only 111 miles ?
Use it for reason of buying one, add the weight of what is loaded on truck and the UP TO becomes, be prepared to walk home

Wonder what the selling price is ?

TBH I don't think most buyer will be concerned about the purchase price.....I believe there are significant grants and deferred finance options to draw buyers-in.
It will be interesting to see how the trucks cope with flattened batteries......I mean electric cars are seriously heavy......don't think they can be towed so need lifting on to a low loader......a 7.5 ton truck needing a tow is bad enough......what if all wheels need to be off the ground?