Are we still convinced that electric vehicles are the best way forward?

Young Bill

CCCUK regional rep
You've too much time on your hands. EV is here to stay, suck it up.
US is decades behind on EV infrastructure, not enough chargers, too far apart.
Never had problems with EV insurance. Maybe just you guys in Murica... ?
Could Google how many ice cars have went on fire but cannae be arsed. BMW has issues at the moment with fuel pumps causing fires. Google that.

But hey, enjoy your night...
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
This discussion as to me is about Corvettes, a sports car and not some made in EU EV where they drive at 30 MPH on the freeway
Buy all the EVs you want there, but when it comes to the American Corvette, we have no intent to please Europe
with hundreds of pounds of batteries slowing us down as here go fast,
Real fast :)

My post was to inform others who did not want an all EV C9 Corvette, good news as of today !
ICE power or nothing ! :)
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
As deadly blazes continue to rage this week in the Los Angeles area, officials are grappling with new hazards amid the rubble: damaged batteries, including those from electric vehicles

When Gov. Gavin Newsom, D-Calif., said earlier this week that debris removal crews are poised to move into devastated areas, his office noted in a statement that batteries “can pose distinct risks when exposed to high heat from fires.”
“While the state has extensive experience with clearing cars with (internal) combustion engines,
cleanup teams are still adapting to newer technologies like Tesla and other lithium-ion batteries,” the statement said.


As Hurricane Milton barreled toward Florida in September, officials there warned people to
move their EVs to higher ground because exposure to salt water from storm surge could lead to batteries short-circuiting and catching fire.


Following the Maui fires in 2023, federal hazardous material removal teams used new techniques to process lithium-ion batteries from electric and hybrid vehicles and power walls to reduce the risk of the damaged technology igniting and exploding.

What are the challenges?
If batteries are exposed to flames, they can become fire risks reigniting days, weeks or even months after the initial blaze.

Authorities advised people responding to the Palisades Fire to be mindful of them, identifying damaged or destroyed EV, residential and commercial lithium-ion battery packs as “hazardous structures in a response plan for managing the fire earlier this week.

“Even after a fire has been extinguished, those batteries could be susceptible to reigniting,” said Eliza Hotchkiss, director of the Energy Security and Resilience Center at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory.
“That makes cleanup dangerous for the cleanup crews that are going in after a fire, so it’s really important that those are identified.”

When compromised, these batteries can short-circuit and heat up uncontrollably, releasing toxic and flammable gases that can catch fire. But the risk isn’t the same for all batteries, said Richard Birt, a retired firefighter and founder of Solar and Fire Education, which provides free training for firefighters.
Many modern home storage systems now use batteries that have a much lower risk of reigniting than those found in EVs, and don’t contain heavy metals, Birt said. A damaged residential battery could still hold a charge, he added.

Actively burning batteries can also produce toxic fumes. Additionally, EVs tend to burn longer than gas-powered cars, and these fires can be harder to put out because it’s difficult for water to reach the battery packs, Malmgren said.

The agency now deploys a specialized team into communities affected by fires to handle these batteries, Guria said. If there is a damaged battery, the team will remove it, taking precautions such as wrapping it in a thermal blanket and bringing it to another area where it is de-energized, a process that lowers its voltage.
While fire risk is the primary concern around damaged batteries, the technology could also contain heavy metals such as lithium, cobalt and nickel that could leach into the environment, Hotchkiss said.
 

phild

CCCUK Member
There seems to be a lot of traction by the major car, and commercial vehicle, manufacturers as regards hydrogen power. Seems to eliminate much of the concerns regarding EV's. I also understand that that it is possible to convert conventional ICE's to run on hydrogen which seems eminently sensible rather than scrap perfectly good vehicles.

I recall when I last regularly commuted into London some fifteen years ago, before deciding to work elsewhere, there were buses running on hydrogen. Whether they were fuel cells or conversions I dont know but, one way or the other, its not particularly new technology. It will be interesting to see how this develops.
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
There seems to be a lot of traction by the major car, and commercial vehicle, manufacturers as regards hydrogen power. Seems to eliminate much of the concerns regarding EV's. I also understand that that it is possible to convert conventional ICE's to run on hydrogen which seems eminently sensible rather than scrap perfectly good vehicles.

I recall when I last regularly commuted into London some fifteen years ago, before deciding to work elsewhere, there were buses running on hydrogen. Whether they were fuel cells or conversions I dont know but, one way or the other, its not particularly new technology. It will be interesting to see how this develops.
I recall the hydrogen powered LT buses........in fact the 'filling' station and hydrogen storage facility was only a couple of miles from where I live down on the A127 adjacent to the BP garage and Palms Motel. Just the one filling station on a major trunk road that you'd see a small number of trial buses (5 no. route 7) return to every evening for 'filling-up' and return to central London the following morning. This was back in Livingstones day as I recall - and then only a trial. There was huge concern locally (believe or not) about a nucular explosion........and more realistically a major fire with all the hydrogen cylinder stored at the depot. Trial only lasted two or three years......and yes they were fuel cell vehicles. Roll forward 20 or so years and there are now currently a limited number of fuel call buses running in London. Interesting!
file:///C:/Users/ross_/Downloads/365-10-004-UK-Apr17-transport-for-london-hydrogen-bus-project.pdf
 

phild

CCCUK Member
I've never heard of any concerns about a petrol filling station explosion. I've never heard of one either although that doesn't mean there have never been any. I do recall the spectacular one in the film Bullet. :D:D
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
I've never heard of any concerns about a petrol filling station explosion. I've never heard of one either although that doesn't mean there have never been any. I do recall the spectacular one in the film Bullet. :D:D
Strange world our automotive one. Petrol as we know itself is relatively harmless as a fire risk - its the vapour that is highly explosive. Diesel fuel is the hidden danger - although it doesn't have the same issues with vapor as petrol it seems almost impossible to extinquish if it runs on to even a non combustible surface (like carpeting, seating and trim) the numbers of HGV where the derv leaks on to other parts of the truck and load and seemingly unextinquishable.
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
Hydrogen really should be the way to go , but the R101 didn`t fair too well did it ???? But now Trump has pulled out of the Paris Agreement as he threatened and other major polluting countries like China and India don`t give a damn , this piffling country of ours is just pissing in the wind in its attempts to lead the way in reducing global warming !! I
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
Hydrogen really should be the way to go , but the R101 didn`t fair too well did it ???? But now Trump has pulled out of the Paris Agreement as he threatened and other major polluting countries like China and India don`t give a damn , this piffling country of ours is just pissing in the wind in its attempts to lead the way in reducing global warming !! I
The effects of third world 'emerging economies', China, India, probably most of the Pacific basin churning out endless and ever increasing levels of airborne and other toxic waste with good old blighty and a fair bit of Europe is reminicent of living in your street, with your double/triple glazing, cavity and other insulation with your heat pump and solar panels with your hybrid or electric vehicle parked in the garage all minimising local pollution.........yet all your neighbours are running diesel 4X4's, with log burners backing-up their oil fired central heating which (along with the house lights) is running permanently during winter months.
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
The effects of third world 'emerging economies', China, India, probably most of the Pacific basin churning out endless and ever increasing levels of airborne and other toxic waste with good old blighty and a fair bit of Europe is reminicent of living in your street, with your double/triple glazing, cavity and other insulation with your heat pump and solar panels with your hybrid or electric vehicle parked in the garage all minimising local pollution.........yet all your neighbours are running diesel 4X4's, with log burners backing-up their oil fired central heating which (along with the house lights) is running permanently during winter months.
Precisely the point : but can we get our politicians to grasp that point ? NO ! They are too busy with their own personal agendas and massaging their political egos , not to mention piling punitive taxation on us all in the name of `saving the planet`.
From memory , the UK produces less than 5% of the worlds green house gasses and our ICE vehicles contribute just 0.3% of that 5% so go figure what the minute amount is that we produce whilst no one else gives a damn . 😡
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Just a thought

China is the biggest user of burning coal that emits thousands of tons of pollution into the air and adds to global warming
The Earth rotates, and they say it takes less than 3 days for that filthy air to be over the USA
Factor in all the other dirty countries, so unless every one went green the few countries that emit less crap
all it does is causes hell of the people who are forced into green standards
Southern Ca being on fire last 2 weeks, over 12,000 homes burnt down and all the other large fires there,
do as much to dirty air and warming as most of the other states,
 

phild

CCCUK Member
Precisely the point : but can we get our politicians to grasp that point ? NO ! They are too busy with their own personal agendas and massaging their political egos , not to mention piling punitive taxation on us all in the name of `saving the planet`.
From memory , the UK produces less than 5% of the worlds green house gasses and our ICE vehicles contribute just 0.3% of that 5% so go figure what the minute amount is that we produce whilst no one else gives a damn . 😡

But the measures that try to force us to be green do generate a hell of a lot of tax revenue for central and local government. That, i suspect, is the key motivator for those in power.
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
But the measures that try to force us to be green do generate a hell of a lot of tax revenue for central and local government. That, i suspect, is the key motivator for those in power.
Of course it is ! What better way of generating income than taxation of something the populace cannot do without . It is the modern day equivalent of the 17 century England`s window tax .
 

Blackzed

CCCUK Member
Graph of coal consumption up to 2020, because that is where most electricity is generated.
So anyone extolling the virtues of EV are lying to themselves and everyone else.
Hydrogen as a fuel will produce mostly water vapour, which is strangely the biggest greenhouse affecting substance.
There are millions of aircraft flights every year, no emissions caps on them.
Screenshot_20250122_105239_Google.jpg
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
People need to wake up and smell the coffee , but will that happen ? Nooooooooooooooooooooo !
As many members know , I am a railway buff and have been involved in Heritage Steam Railways all my adult life . Successive UK governments have killed off all UK coal production so we now ship in coal from all over the world to sustain the demand ... where`s the carbon footprint of all that ??? All these railways provide jobs both paid and voluntary and a lot of income to their local economies . At the last count , throughout England , Scotland and Wales there are 75 Standard Gauge railways , 75 Narrow Gauge railways and 34 Heritage Steam Railway Centres not to mention a miriad of Miniature Railways . That`s a heck of a lot of coal ( most of it crap ) sailing across the oceans in huge diesel powered ships .
 

CaptainK

CCCUK Member
That`s a heck of a lot of coal ( most of it crap ) sailing across the oceans in huge diesel powered ships .
It was quite an eye opener when I did my course at the WSR last year and they were switching from their last supplies of Welsh coal to the Polish(?) stuff. Certainly could see the difference in it, and the output it produces. Silly Governments.
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
It was quite an eye opener when I did my course at the WSR last year and they were switching from their last supplies of Welsh coal to the Polish(?) stuff. Certainly could see the difference in it, and the output it produces. Silly Governments.
Unfortunately the last supplies of Welsh coal ceased with the enforced closure of Ffos y fran in South Wales despite a legal battle for it stay open . It was the largest open cast coal mine in the UK . Poland is just ` down the road` in comparison to Colombia where a lot of steam coal comes from ( 2.3 million tons in 2016 !!! ) but now significantly decreased . Plus Australia and the USA are other suppliers . Also Russia but that has dropped off for obvious reasons . The Great Central Railway where I volunteer now had been using Colombian coal and I joked that it smelled like Cocaine burning :ROFLMAO: . Back in my loco fireman days the Severn Valley Railway it purchased Russian coal as a cost cutting measure but all us crews complained as it burned like a wet sack , made masses of ash that choked the firebox up and spread ash out the chimney like the fall out from Vesuvius !! They ovoids.jpg eventually stopped buying it .
The current trend is for Ovoids which is basically reconstituted coal `glued` together in uniform shape and size as can be seen in the photo . It lacks the high calorific value of good quality steam coal and needs sustained high firebox temperatures to burn properly which is never achieved on short journey , low speed heritage railways . The bonding agent also gums up the fire bars of the great . In summery , it`s ok for other countries to mine coal and sell it all around as long as good old UK doesn`t do it and our politicians can smugly band on about `doing our bit ` for the planet .
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Multiple GTP manufacturers have voiced concerns over the number of high-voltage related issues that have occurred in the buildup to this weekend’s Rolex 24 at Daytona, with Porsche LMDh factory director Urs Kuratle admitting that he ‘hopes it doesn’t turn into a pandemic’ in the IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship season opener.

Both Porsche Penske Motorsport and BMW M Team RLL have been forced to change at least two of the spec LMDh hybrid powertrains each since the start of the Roar Before the Rolex 24, with one source indicating that as many as ten batteries have been affected or replaced at Daytona International Speedway altogether.

The first apparent failure came during the opening day of the Roar when the No. 7 Penske Porsche 963 of Felipe Nasr ground to a halt on the backstretch and was forced to jump out of the car per IMSA’s HV safety protocols.

The No. 25 Team RLL BMW M Hybrid V8 of Sheldon van der Linde, which stopped on track in the early stages of qualifying on Thursday, was also diagnosed as a HV-related issue.
Multiple other GTP cars are understood to have also suffered HV-related issues to varying degrees, including both customer Porsche 963s during the Roar.

“I don’t hope it’s a pandemic,” Kuratle told selected reporters on Friday afternoon.
“We just came from a meeting discussing high-voltage issues. I don’t know the total number of changed batteries, but it’s definitely too many, that’s for sure.
“We had a meeting today, including [with] the governance bodies, and Bosch and [Fortescue Zero] and all the involved parties. We hope the situation is under control.”

Kuratle noted that the issues with the hybrid powertrain, which is not linked to gearbox provider Xtrac, have all been different forms of problems.
Bosch Motorsport supplies the spec MGU, while Fortescue Zero, formerly WAE Technologies, is charged with the single-supply battery system for the hybrid prototypes.

“They’re doing a great job, but it is fair to say that from the reliability point of view, it looks like we did a step backwards compared to last year on this one.“And that’s something to find out why that is.”

Porsche’s VP of Motorsport Thomas Laudenbach added: “Coming to the third season now, coming to the most important race of the IMSA season, it doesn’t give you the best feeling.
“On the other side, I think everybody in the world is really trying everything to make sure that we will not have any influence for any competitor tomorrow, because that would be the worst case.

“We don’t want to have any incident in the race due to a spec part.
“It’s probably not the best feeling.”
BMW M Motorsport director Andreas Roos confirmed the issue of the No. 25 BMW in qualifying as “clearly an issue with the high voltage system.”
It’s understood BMW has made at least three battery changes since the start of on-track action last week.

“The cars are now back in a good shape,” said Roos on Friday morning. “But clearly it’s not what you want to have in qualifying that the car stops on track.
When asked by Sportscar365 if there’s any cause for concern, Roos said: “At the end you always feel better when there’s no issue at all happening in practice and testing.

“For sure there’s a bit of a concern, but on the other hand we showed now we brought everything together and had a good car in FP3 and that’s how we want to go into the race.”
Porsche Penske managing director Jonathan Diuguid indicated the issues haven’t been yet tracked to a certain batch of parts.

It’s understood there have not been any updates to the components for the third year of the LMDh platform, although Diuguid described “some new pieces” in a “production batch.”
Porsche Penske is understood to be changing the batteries again on both of its factory entries tonight, ahead of tomorrow’s race start.

“But we are not sitting here with a warm, fuzzy feeling about the race.”
 
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